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Thursday, September 9, 2010

Quick News Roundup: 09/09/10

Shana tova to all our Jewish readers!

Domestic News: In my home state of Maryland, the Maryland Board of Physicians upheld the license suspension of George Shepard, Jr. and Nicola I. Riley. Both are employees of Steven Bringham, noted abortionist who has been in legal trouble in a number of states for his abortion businesses. Following the news of Bringham's actions in Maryland, authorities in New Jersey are also looking to suspend the medical licenses of Bringham's associates. This fall, voters in Colorado will have the opportunity to vote on an amendment to their State Constitution to define when life begins. As part of the "Personhood Amendment" movement, which hopes to codefy the definition of life in individual State Constitutions, Colorado is the only State to have this vote on their November ballot. Mississippi will have it on their ballot in 2011.

International News: Now that Kenya has a democratically drafted and voted on Constitution, pro-life legislators are stepping up to amend it already. Section 26 of the current Consitutiotn allows abortion when in the "opinion of a trained health professional, there is need for emergency treatment, or the life or health of the mother is in danger, or if permitted by any other written law." Pro-life legislators are moving quickly to try to change that language. Again, for those interested - Pregnant Pause has a great list of the legality of abortion in various countries across the globe specifically listing for what reasons abortions are allowed and trimester restrictions (if applicable).

Discussion Topic: Why are you pro-life? This is a secular group which leads to a variety of reasons to be pro-life from its supporters. I've been pro-life for a while now and for a number of reasons - from the fact that science can not truly define when life begins, to the fact that viability outside of the womb is not a definable quantity, to the fact that I'm a father of a prematurely born son who thrived outside the womb and is doing great now. I'm sure I can spout off more reasons why I feel that life is precious and the unborn deserve as much respect and protection as the born. What about you?

25 comments:

Yonmei said...

International News: Now that Kenya has a democratically drafted and voted on Constitution, pro-life legislators are stepping up to amend it already. Section 26 of the current Consitutiotn allows abortion when in the "opinion of a trained health professional, there is need for emergency treatment, or the life or health of the mother is in danger, or if permitted by any other written law." Pro-life legislators are moving quickly to try to change that language.

Quite. It would be truly appalling if the hundreds of women in Kenya who are known to die each year because they cannot get access to safe, legal abortion were allowed to have an abortion safely and legally, and survived.

The pro-life belief that women are evil and deserve to die was never so plainly seen in their international hate campaign against a clause in the Kenyan constitution which merely begs to allow for the possible survival of some of the women who now die.

Even that tiny clause begging legislators to allow for the possibility that at some point the lives and health of women in Kenya will be valued as today they are not, is regarded with such aggressive detestation by the international movement for the death of women which calls itself "pro-life".

darkcougar555 said...

Ahh..... it wasted my time when I answered the question, "Why are you pro-life", when I made a little long comment and tried to post it. But it popped out to say "Sorry, I can't complete your request". Now I lost a whole comment. =(

So I will try it tomorrow...

The Alexir of Life said...

I am prolife because the unborn human IS a human, and is innocent of any criminal deed (maybe there is actus reus but there is no mens rea), and it is wrong to murder humans. Which is both secular - it's human, and biblical (although also found elsewhere) - murder is wrong.

Yonmei said...

DarkCougar, from my own personal experience that means your comment's in the spam queue.

Alexir of Life, can you explain how your belief that a fetus is a human being (which I share) leads you to believe that women exist merely to incubate fetuses from fertilised egg to baby, and you don't need to care how many women die as a direct result of being treated in this dehumanizing manner?

Your belief that women do not deserve to be treated as human beings is something I can't share and can't understand: I don't see how believing that fetuses are human justifies it.

Kenya: Making Safe Abortion Illegal and Unsafe Abortion Legal

Yonmei said...

This is the situation for women in Kenya, which pro-lifers find desirable and wish to continue:
* Based on their findings, researchers estimated that 20,000 women are hospitalized with abortion-related complications in the public health system alone each year. They further estimated that as many as 300,000 abortions occur in Kenya each year.
* Study data revealed that about 48% of abortions occurred in women aged 14 to 24 years; 57% of the women were from urban areas.
* During the three-week course of the study, 7 out of the 809 study participants with abortion complications died -- nearly 1 in 100.
* The total annual direct cost of treating complications of unsafe abortion in public hospitals was nearly $230,000 (18 million Kenyan shillings).

Why is it that pro-lifers think this kind of agony, this human cost of women's lives and health, is amply justified by saying "the unborn human IS a human, and is innocent of any criminal deed" - aren't the women dying for this 'principle' also human? What makes this state of affairs so wonderful to you, Alexir, or to you, Matthew, that you want it to continue?

Yonmei said...

From Reproductive Health Matters, 1998, an African physician writes about the situation caused by the pro-life belief that women should have no right of access to safe/legal abortion: Preventing Unsafe Abortion in Western Kenya: An approach through private physicians.

That is, an attempt to reverse the kind of lethal statistics that I cite in my previous comment, where women do not have access either to safe abortion or to aftercare because pro-lifers believe they should not and work to prevent it, and therefore women who need abortions die.

Again: how do you justify in your mind the mass deaths of so many women on the grounds that "fetuses are human"? Aren't women human?

darkcougar555 said...

Hi Yonmei. I suppose that you're right. But I realize I refreshed the same page a several times after it popped out to display "Sorry, I can't compete your request" message. I think I may get duplicate comments on here. I hope not! O.O

Secular (or Matthew if he can but not sure), please delete my comment(s) cos I am going to summarize that will make my comment shorter, soon.

Yonmei said...

cos I am going to summarize that will make my comment shorter, soon.

And is your summary going to justify why you think women deserve to die for your beliefs?

The pro-lifers campaigning for Kenyan women not to be allowed abortion even to save their lives - the pro-life agitation that it should be written into their constitution that in Kenya a woman must die rather than be allowed an abortion - really brings it into sharp relief that the pro-life position is based solidly on - at best - indifference to women, or aggressive hostility to women.

Indifference to women is of course strange in a political movement that justifies itself by a concern for fetuses. Because anyone moderately educated in reproductive biology would know that for a healthy baby to be made from a fertilized egg, the fetus needs a healthy woman's body. For pro-lifers to act as if the health and life of women is of no concern to them, betrays a certain detachment from reality about the needs of fetuses...

darkcougar555 said...

Why are you pro-life?

Actually, I'm a moderate pro-lifer. I will explain my reasons, here.

1. Science. I agree that science cannot define how and when the life begins. I personally believe in the new life begins at conception. I consider the visibility of person begins when his body has his head, arms, and legs are formed.

2. Forget the Illegal. Making abortions illegal is not the answer, because it will not help. Legal or not, any women will find a way to get an abortion no what matter. In my opinion, there are better ways to end abortion than making it illegal. Just because you care about women that does not mean you can't be pro-life. If pro-choicers do care, then they can too.

3. Pro-Responsibility. I was taught about sex education that helped me pretty well. I now aware well that not every Birth Control is 100% effective because it could be broken or not work. If I were responsible enough, and accident happens, I'm willing to accept whatever comes. I'm not going to kill my child for my mere mistake, period. But really... What is so hard for you to accept about having responsible sexual behavior? If someone don't feel like being responsible at any given moment and isn't ready to accept the consequences of said irresponsible behavior, he or she should not have sex. If the situation is not properly responsible, he or she should keep his or her pants closed. It is matter of responsibility. I just don't understand why is so hard for people to accept about having responsible sexual behavior.

4. Anti-Sexism is Pro-Life. Yes, I do think it is. But I feel it is better not to explain it why. Otherwise my reasonable explanation may upset pro-choicers...

5. Choose Life. Every life is precious, not worthless like a trash. Just because your life "sucks", that does not mean you're not deserve to be alive. Being famous or not, there are people like me have their poor quality of life can become a good or best quality of life. Being poor won't stay poor, and being rich won't stay rich, because it never stay for ever. =) Lastly, it is my personal reasons is religious matters but I won't bother to explain it... since it is not secular anyways. =)

darkcougar555 said...

... LOL. Well, if you are not interested in civil debates, then I am not going to take you seriously.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now; it's 1:25 am here. So have a good night.

Yonmei said...

DarkCougar: Forget the Illegal. Making abortions illegal is not the answer, because it will not help. Legal or not, any women will find a way to get an abortion no what matter. In my opinion, there are better ways to end abortion than making it illegal.

So in fact, you're pro-choice. You believe, as I do, that women should have the right to choose for themselves when or if to have a baby.

Now why are you afraid to identify as pro-choice? Why do you want to identify with the people who hate women enough to want to make abortion illegal even when performed to save the woman's life?

Yonmei said...

Now this, rather than agitating for keeping abortions illegal and unsafe, is what pro-choice people who value human life will be doing:

How to save millions of mothers and children


Hello,

I just signed a petition calling on world leaders to fund programs to save millions of women and children from unnecessary deaths at a poverty meeting later this month. But only a massive global outcry will push them to take this critical step. Please join me to make this campaign unmissable.

You can sign the petition here:

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/save_children_and_mothers/98.php?CLICKTF

So you know. If you want to take a break from attacking women's health and women's lives, and do something pro-choice that might actually make a positive difference - sign the petition. It'll only take a minute.

Nulono said...

Yonmei, pro-lifers aren't against abortions necessary to save the life of the mother. The amendment is just for clarification; as we see in America with Doe v. Bolton, "health" is a very vague term, and can be used as a loophole to effectively instate abortion on demand.

As I have explained elsewhere, we're not concerned with controlling how many children anyone has. All we're saying is that it's wrong to take the life of an innocent human being.

The petition you submitted is a noble cause, and I'll be promoting it as soon as I've verified there's no hidden promotion of abortion.

I'm pro-life because science can define, and has defined, when life begins.

Jesurgislac said...

That's a very Catholic view of things, Nulano - once a woman has had sex, even if she has been raped, she ceases in your eyes to be "innocent" and so you don't care about preserving her life. Of course when the pregnant woman dies her fetus dies too, but I've noticed before that pro-lifers never care for that.

secularprolife.org said...

The problem with the pro-abortion approach to developing countries is that they confuse what causes what. Legalizing abortion does not make abortion safe if the overall health system of the country is inadequate to treat abortion complications. But making abortion legal DOES cause the abortion rate to increase, putting more women at risk. http://www.nrlc.org/UN/MMEnglsh.pdf

That's precisely the situation in Kenya. The Kenyans themselves understand this; only 9% support making abortion legal. Shouldn't their right to self-determination count for something?

If you want to reduce the maternal mortality rate, the best way to do so is to provide competent ob/gyns, midwives, and doulas, and technologically up-to-date birthing centers.

secularprolife.org said...

Without speaking for DarkCougar, here are my two cents: I define the divide as those who believe that abortion is a right ("pro-choice") and those who believe that abortion is a violation of a right ("pro-life").

Once you're pro-life, there can still be disagreement about the best way to cure the violation. Some may think that a legal approach is ineffective or unwise; some are indifferent to it. But it doesn't make any sense to lump them together with those who are actively campaigning for abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason, without apology.

Jesurgislac said...

Legalizing abortion does not make abortion safe if the overall health system of the country is inadequate to treat abortion complications.

And what's the best way to ensure massive abortion complications that the overall health system of the country is unable to treat? Why, that's right, boys and girls - the survivors, anyway - you keep abortion illegal, so that instead of abortions being performed early by qualified medical practioners, they're performed by unqualified backstreet abortionists.

But making abortion legal DOES cause the abortion rate to increase, putting more women at risk. www.nrlc.org UN MMEnglsh

woo-hoo! More lying pro-life propaganda from a lying pro-life organization! Surely you don't expect citing the "national right to life organization" to be accepted as gospel by anyone but a devout pro-life believer?

The facts are clear: making abortion illegal means women have to have illegal abortions. Illegal abortions, while statistically safer than childbirth, are far more hazardous than legal abortions.

That's precisely the situation in Kenya. The Kenyans themselves understand this; only 9% support making abortion legal. Shouldn't their right to self-determination count for something?

What, you think the Kenyan women dying from illegal abortions want to be dead, and so you support their "right to self-determination"?

If you support "right to self-determination", you support the right of each woman who discovers she's pregnant to have an abortion. if you're not a monster, you support her right to have that abortion safely, legally, performed by a qualified medical practioner.

Jesurgislac said...

If you're a pro-lifer, obv., you are a monster: you want women to die. You don't care that a majority of Kenyans voted for a constitution that allows women the right to live: you want to override their majority vote and institute a special clause that makes abortion illegal even when performed to save a woman's life.

If you want to reduce the maternal mortality rate, the best way to do so is to provide competent ob/gyns, midwives, and doulas, and technologically up-to-date birthing centers.

Shame pro-lifers round the world aren't willing to give up their desire for the mass deaths of women and join pro-choicers in reducing maternal mortality by providing competent doctors, midwives, and doulas, and technologically up-to-date birthing and family planning centers - but only want to campaign to make abortion completely , constitutionally, illegal in Kenya.

At present the current constitution only allows abortion to save a woman's life, but allows the possibility that legislation may be written to expand that.

Pro-lifers, as the OP enthusiastically documents, are against even that tiny provision of humanity: they want to undo the clause allowing abortion to save a woman's life in Kenya, and make it completely illegal, so that doctors will be compelled to stand and watch as women die when only an abortion could save their lives.

Jesurgislac said...

But it doesn't make any sense to lump them together with those who are actively campaigning for abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason, without apology.

Why should anyone "apologize" for wanting women to live? Now you think that wanting women to live is a matter for public shame and "apology"?

I think the pro-lifers who are campaigning to override Kenya's democratic constitution in your insane demand that women die rather than have the right to abortion, owe the women of Kenya, and their loved ones, an apology.

And "at any time and for any reason" is particularly ironic in a post about the pro-life attack on the availability of legal abortion in Kenya. What the pro-life campaign against the constitution there is all about, is denial of the right of a doctor to save a patient's life by performing an abortion.

Jesurgislac said...

Matthew: I'm sure I can spout off more reasons why I feel that life is precious and the unborn deserve as much respect and protection as the born. What about you?

Oh well, in that case, I count as pro-life.

I feel that life is precious. Therefore, I'm against allowing women to die because they aren't allowed access to safe, legal abortion.

I feel that women deserve at least as much respect as fetuses do, and therefore deserve the right to decide, for themselves, without Church or State interfering, whether they're going to terminate or continue a pregnancy.

I'm assuming your son had a mother, it's the ordinary human arrangement. Why are you treating with such enthusiasm a church attack on Kenyan women's life and health? Do you think the mother of your son deserves to live? Do you regard her health with such indifference now she's given you a son?

Except, of course, that Matthew's justifications for being "pro-life" apply only to fetuses, and as I regard women's lives as precious and women as worthy of respect, I count as pro-choice.

Yonmei said...

I hadn't meant to come back to this thread - indeed, given that this kind of pointless misogyny is so infuriating to me, I was going to try to stay away from this blog (which I'm sure will be a great relief to all you women haters) but, here's what the Kenyan Constitution, which pro-lifers take such exception to, actually says about abortion, or as they put it, about "Right to life".

26. (1) Every person has the right to life.

(2) The life of a person begins at conception.

(3) A person shall not be deprived of life intentionally, except to the extent authorised by this Constitution or other written law.

(4) Abortion is not permitted unless, in the opinion of a trained health professional, there is need for emergency treatment, or the
life or health of the mother is in danger, or if permitted by any other written law.

From the Kenyan Nation website

Now to me this looks like a futile attempt to "compromise". But you can't compromise with evil, and the pro-life forces are evil.

Matthew, I'm not planning to return to this blog, so you can take this as a rhetorical question - presuming that "SecularProlife" is right and you only object to this clause of the Constitution in Kenya because it allows for abortions performed to preserve the health of the mother, in the judgement of a trained medical professional. So you'd have been OK with an abortion performed to save your wife's life: but you would not be okay with an abortion merely performed to preserve her health and wellbeing.

How much damage and permanent disability, Matthew, are you then willing for your wife to be subjected to, in the cause of producing for you a living son? Are you willing to have her go blind? To have her lose her fertility - her ability to have more children? To have her heart or her lungs or any other organ of her body permanently damaged?

I ask you because, as an opponent of this Constitutional clause, you are apparently unwilling to allow either your wife or her doctor to decide how much damage can be done to her body in the cause of making you a son: so that leave you to decide. How much suffering have you decided in your mind she can undergo, how much damage are you willing to put her through, since you feel that a clause that protects her health from interference by the Churches and the State is just a pro-choice step too far?

Yonmei said...

Final comment to this thread citing what the Kenyan Constitution actually says, has gone to the spam queue. What is truth, asked jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer.

secularprolife.org said...

"woo-hoo! More lying pro-life propaganda from a lying pro-life organization! Surely you don't expect citing the "national right to life organization" to be accepted as gospel by anyone but a devout pro-life believer?"
Wow-- apparently, the Guttmacher Institute is a fountain of pro-life propoganda! After all, one of THEIR researchers is cited for the fact that "In most countries, it is common after abortion is legalized for abortion rates to rise sharply for several years, then stabilize, just as we have seen in the United States.”

The problem with the Kenyan constitution, and the part which pro-lifers seek to have amended, is not the part that allows abortion to save a mother's life. It's the part that allows abortion "if permitted by any other written law." Imagine if our 14th Amendment protected our right to life... unless it conflicts with any other written law. Or if we had freedom of speech... unless some other law says we don't. It completely short-circuits the amendment process and the purpose of a constitution.

Nulono said...

Don't bother, Kelsey. I explained that we're not against the part allowing abortions to save the mother's life, but that we were against the phrasing of "health" (which we've seen in America can lead to some loopholes big enough to fly a Death Star through) and the part allowing the Constitution to take backseat to statute. She would have none of it. I tried to explain that I don't care if a woman continues with her pregnancy; it's the prolicide that concerns me. I've explained that there is no right to kill an innocent human being for any reason other than to save your life. She ignores any reason and spouts the same nonsense. I have a name for her kind: Roebots. Don't waste your time.

The Kenyan people are pro-life. They voted for the Constitution as a whole, in spite of the abortion language. What the amendment will to is apply the people's voice to that particular issue.

darkcougar555 said...

@Nulono Yep. We should lol at them and then to ignore them. Your reaction is exactly what they want to see, so now they're probably lol'ing at you guys. Their comments are full of bitterness and don't care what we said. Really, it is not worthy to debate/discuss with them, in my opinion.

Anyways - since the comment system seems it have limited number of words or characters. My previous comment was supposedly a bit longer for 10 reasons. Oh well, here I go.

6. The Respect for Born and Unborn. I feel the same way Matthew does. Just because a child is in her womb that doesn't mean he/she can't be person or human.

7. Abortion for Woman's Health. I support that. Reason? I don't think it is fair to put a woman's life in danger (or death) if she is not allowed to get an abortion.

8. Anti-Rape. Okaaay. I know it is very touchy subject. I'm pretty uneasy on that... I may not agree with her choice but, whenever she have an abortion or not, she needs tons of love and support. Rape is never funny. =/

9. Anti-Adoption. I know a lot of pro-lifers support the adoption. I can understand that. Sure, the adoption is nice... but it is more tragic choice. I only see more negative effects from the adoption than positive effects. Adoption is not only harm women, it does harm children as well. I believe each woman should have the need of emotional support when making that decision. I hate it when Lifers throw a word without understanding how adoption works and those results from their adoption experiences. =/

10. Abortion Sucks!. No explanation needed. You know why! ;)

OK, I'm done. =)