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Friday, October 17, 2014

Abortion as a social good?

On October 13, Slate published a piece by Hannah Rosin called “Abortion is Great,” in which Rosin discusses the views of pro-choice author Katha Pollitt and explains why more pro-choicers should embrace abortion as a social good. My blog post here is my initial reactions as I read Rosin’s piece.

Rosin points out that 6 out of 10 American women who have abortions are already mothers. In my experience, many pro-lifers don’t seem to realize this, as I’ve heard so many of us talk as if pro-choice people inherently dislike kids and would be incapable of parenting. Something to think about. 
“…any woman who’s reading this piece and has had an abortion, or any man who has supported one, should go in the comments section and [tell their story], until there are so many accounts that the statement ['I had an abortion'] loses its shock value.”

She seems to neglect the many post-abortive women and men who became pro-life because of their abortion experiences. 
“…we have all essentially been brainwashed by a small minority of pro-life activists. Only 7 to 20 percent of Americans tell pollsters they want to totally ban abortion…”

Most of the pro-lifers I know, including many pro-life activists, don’t believe abortion should be totally banned. For example, nearly every pro-lifer I’ve ever interacted with agrees abortion should be legal to save the life of the mother, and a majority of self-described pro-lifers believe abortion should be legal in cases of rape. It’s a misconception to suggest that pro-life activists are only those who think all abortions in every circumstance should be illegal.

Pro-lifers may disagree on the legality of abortion in the harsher cases: when a woman’s physical health is endangered, when she was raped, when the fetus has a severe, possibly life-threatening condition, etc. But if I had to describe the common thread that pulls together most people who call themselves “pro-life,” I’d say it’s the agreement that abortion is immoral and should be illegal at minimum when it is done on healthy fetuses resulting from consensual sex and carried by healthy mothers. And the great majority of abortions today are done in such cases. Rosin alludes to as much herself: 
“Three in 10 American women have abortions by the time they hit menopause. They are not generally victims of rape or incest, or in any pitiable situation from which they need to be rescued.”

Rosin continues: 
“They are making a reasonable and even admirable decision that they can’t raise a child at the moment. Is that so hard to say? As Pollitt puts it, ‘This is not the right time for me’ should be reason enough. And saying that aloud would help push back against the lingering notion that it’s unnatural for a woman to choose herself over others.”

Rosin is asking people to be more direct about abortion, yet she describes a woman’s choice to abort as merely “choosing herself over others.” That description is not direct at all. Abortion kills a human. That’s direct. Many people don’t consider that human worth much moral consideration, and so some of them are pro-abortion, as Rosin clearly is. Fine. But pretending that a death isn’t happening means ignoring why the entire subject continues to divide Americans. Rosin wants to believe this is about being aghast that a woman would choose herself over others, but it’s not about that at all.

Consider this: if a woman feels it’s not the right time for her to have children, she can choose not to have sex, or choose to only participate in non-procreative sex, or choose to use contraception, or choose to give a child up for adoption. She could also choose to abort. All of these choices may reflect her position that she isn’t prepared to or doesn’t want to raise children, yet one of these choices is far, far more controversial and contentious than the others.



If this were really about us being upset that a woman would want to choose herself over others, we’d be against any decision that puts her education, career, or other aspects of her life above procreation. Yet, for example, the vast majority of Americans, including the majority of pro-lifers, believe contraception is morally acceptable. Rosin says there is a "fog of regret" surrounding abortion, but we simply don't see that same "fog" surrounding these other decisions. There’s a clear distinction between abortion and other choices not to raise children, and Rosin, and so many pro-choice activists, skip this distinction entirely. Abortion is not simply about reproductive freedom, healthcare decisions, or a woman choosing herself over others. Abortion is about having a very young, less developed human killed. That’s the difference.

Rosin digs in with her gender-based theory by saying we don’t apply the same standard to men. “We would never expect a man to drop everything and accept a life of ‘dimmed hope’ because of a single ejaculation.” I expect the many men who (rightfully) have to pay child support for single ejaculations would beg to differ.

Rosin also elaborates on some of Pollitt’s explanations of alleged pro-life contradictions: 
“[Pollitt] cites one poll for example showing that 38 percent of people say abortion is as ‘bad as killing a person already born.’ But in the same poll 84 percent say it’s fine to save the life of a mother. If you really think about it, this position is untenable. No one would say it was fine to kill a toddler if the mother needed its heart.”

What a strange comparison. When is abortion about the mother needing the fetus's heart? The proper analogy would be if somehow a toddler’s very presence was actively killing the mother (akin to an embryo in an ectopic pregnancy) and the only way for the mother to save her own life was to remove the toddler, and the only way to remove the toddler resulted in the toddler’s death. 

I can’t think of a scenario where that would be true – which goes to a point Rosin and I agree on: the fetus and the mother have a complicated relationship. But if there was an analogous situation with a born human, I think many people would defend the right to kill as self-defense. This isn’t about killing someone else to use their heart (when would a mother ever be able to use a toddler’s heart anyway?) This is about killing someone else to prevent them from actively killing you. Most people, and our own history of self-defense laws, see the two scenarios entirely differently.

Rosin goes on to discuss how the left and pro-choicers should advocate for abortion, especially for poor women, as part of an effort to urge women to wait to have children until they are in stable relationships. She believes promoting abortion as an extension of birth control is part of “a new era of family values.” She agrees with Pollitt, who believes “the moral high ground is in reclaiming the right to have an abortion, regardless of the circumstances.”

But I’m not sure “reclaiming” is the correct verb here. Was there ever a time when people who promote abortion regardless of circumstances had the moral high ground?

Rosin seems to think her side has descended to defensiveness by saying abortion should be safe, legal, and rare and by focusing on abortion in the extreme cases of maternal health and life or of incest and rape. But (to my knowledge) this isn’t a descent – it’s where many abortion defenders have been from the beginning. Perhaps they focus on the extreme cases and act defensive about abortion in general because polls suggest most Americans think abortion as birth control – the kind of remorseless abortion culture Rosin promotes – should be illegal.

Rosin’s piece is not the first to push back against pro-choice defensiveness, but I suspect this aggressive strategy will ultimately backfire. From what I’ve seen, the average American finds abortion problematic but sees it as a “necessary evil,” at least for the extreme cases we so often focus on. I’m dubious our society is willing to instead embrace abortion as an unapologetic good.

730 comments:

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secularprolife.org said...

Prove that the science and statistics are incorrect. Non biased peer reviewed publications only.

secularprolife.org said...

In AFRICA and maternal conditions ARE NOT the NUMBER ONE cause of death. But yeah, keep twisting it. You seem to be talented at that.

secularprolife.org said...

There's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to get pregnant and give birth. No one ever said there was, as long as it's a freely-made choice.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, now you are back to being nice? Sorry, I fell for it the first time and tried to have a discussion with you. You mistook it for weakness.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, here we go, when all else fails, play the victim card.

secularprolife.org said...

And this is supposed to support fear mongering? Please. At least I don't try to make women afraid to have an abortion with manipulated and twisted data.

secularprolife.org said...

Explain what is objectively wrong with not wanting one's bodily integrity violated?

secularprolife.org said...

Should you be forced to gestate against your will?

secularprolife.org said...

Nice? Personally, I think that refusing to give straight answers and misrepresenting someone else's position is not nice at all. But that's what you've been doing here. In fact, that's all you've been doing. You haven't been trying to have a discussion.

secularprolife.org said...

When we were discussing your fear mongering tactics? Right.

secularprolife.org said...

Nothing I said has anything at all to do with fear mongering.

secularprolife.org said...

Non responsive. Please answer.

secularprolife.org said...

How is night porter 'playing the victim card'?

secularprolife.org said...

Non-responsive? How about this sweet pea? Instead of playing cheesy cat and mouse games with you, let's get to the bottom line. WOMEN are powerful creatures with BEAUTIFUL bodies both within and without with NOTHING to be ashamed of and the quicker we stop playing the victim card, and take control and responsibility of our bodies the sooner we can actually rise against patriarchal tyranny.

secularprolife.org said...

Playing the shame to be pregnant and give birth game comes from negative MALE centric view of female bodes. Wake the fuck up.

secularprolife.org said...

The two biggest things wrong with your post are these:

(1)Most that are pro-life

(2)are not advocating to put women's lives at risk

With respect to #1, the "wrong" thing is the label "pro-life". They are not actually "pro life", not when they care nothing about all the OTHER life being killed all over the Earth, due to human overpopulation --the current estimates are that 3 species are being made extinct every hour --and those self-called "pro life" people want to help that happen, by insisting ever-more human mouths-to-feed must be born? What they actually are: "Liars Stupidly Prejudiced In Favor Of Human Life Uber Alles, Calling Themselves 'Pro Life' When They Are Actually Liars Stupidly Prejudiced In Favor Of Human Life Uber Alles". But that's quite a mouthful, so I usually just call them "abortion opponents".



With respect to #2, the "wrong" thing is what they actually adovcate: Demoting women from "person" status to "life support system for a mere animal organism" status, a lesser status than demoting women to mere-animal status. It should be obvious that someone must be psychologically defective, who thinks a person should be enslaved to servicing a mere animal.

secularprolife.org said...

So forced childbearing is the solution to that?

secularprolife.org said...

Straw man fallacy. That's not the game that night porter is playing.

secularprolife.org said...

So forced childbirth will overthrow teh patriarchy?

secularprolife.org said...

Having an abortion is one way of taking control and responsibility. The fact that you disagree with it is immaterial.

secularprolife.org said...

Bullshit. The three of you preached how pregnancy and birth are bad because it kills women. Stop back pedaling.

secularprolife.org said...

She is trolling, only she looks like the dimwit.

secularprolife.org said...

That's not what we at all did. All we said was that pregnancy carries risk, and the decision about whether to assume that risk should be made by the woman who is actually pregnant. So you can stop lying now.

secularprolife.org said...

Forced childbearing? Hon, you advocated fear of giving birth and being pregnant. Is that not just as wrong as forced childbearing?

secularprolife.org said...

Do you think women should be able to legally end a pregnancy if they decide they want to?

secularprolife.org said...

Is forced childbearing just as wrong as advocating women to fear their bodies or not?

secularprolife.org said...

Straw man. No one has been advocating that. And you still haven't answered my question.

secularprolife.org said...

Nope. Its medical reality. Pro lifers lie and pretend that pregnancy is equivalent to eating doritos on a couch, or to a light cold (I've heard both excuses here).

They pretend that pregnancy is all fairy farts and unicorns in order to gaslight women as "selfish baby killing sluts who wont put up with a minor inconvenience."

secularprolife.org said...

Bullshit. That's exactly what has been advocated. Stop running away and backpedaling.

secularprolife.org said...

What I advocate is for pregnancy decisions to be made by the woman who is actually pregnant. So stop lying, stop misrepresenting my position and answer the question.

secularprolife.org said...

Stop misrepresenting Jennifer Starr. Nowhere has she advocated for forced abortion.

secularprolife.org said...

Yeah, you have some pro-lifers that are like that. There are even pro-lifers that use their stance because they don't care about neither the baby or mom. But pro-choicers do fantastic job of slut-shaming themselves and now, are even going so far as to promote fear with manipulated medical data. What these pro-lifers chose to do is no excuse for promoting fear of one's body. Why do you think men were able to take power from women? Now it's not enough for men to fear our bodies but we must fear our bodies too? GTFOH.

secularprolife.org said...

Medical reality to counter pro life lies is not "fear mongering", sweetie.

secularprolife.org said...

Stop misrepresenting me, Porter. You are the one that threw in forced abortions like a wild card in order to trump the conversation and deflect from your advocating for women to fear their bodies. Keep trying back pedal.

secularprolife.org said...

Nope.

secularprolife.org said...

Awww....look who is pouting. You decided to jump in and support manipulation of data over the leading cause of death for women worldwide that was used to inspire fear in women over their own bodies and thus, justify abortions. Of all the very valid pro-abortion arguments out there, the three of you chose fear mongering. That's on you. Not on me.

secularprolife.org said...

The only one who has been talking about forced abortions is you. Is it possible for you to have a debate without lying about what the other person represents?

secularprolife.org said...

No, it's on you. Because apparently you only know how to debate by lying about the other person's position. We haven't misrepresented you.

secularprolife.org said...

Bullshit. Porter brought it up. It's a very effective guilt inducing tactic and one that was attempted to be used against me. Nice try though.

secularprolife.org said...

No, Porter never brought it up. But you have. And you've just confirmed that you're not able to have a debate without lying.

secularprolife.org said...

Do you really want me to flood you with copied and pasted messages that you wrote? Instead of getting your feelings hurt, next time bring up a valid counterargument without attacking someone and then you might be amazed how a healthy discussion can be achieved. Would you like me to give you some valid pro-abortion arguments? I'm all about helping others out.

secularprolife.org said...

All that I've ever advocated for is for pregnancy decisions to be made by the woman who is actually pregnant. And if a woman has a risky pregnancy, only she can decide whether or not to assume that risk. I have brought up many valid counterarguments and you either ignore or sidestep them. You are a dishonest individual and I don't believe that you have ever had any intention of having a healthy discussion with any of us.

secularprolife.org said...

I'm sorry you're so stupid, sweetie. http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/maternal-deaths-in-childbirth-rise-in-the-us/2014/05/02/abf7df96-d229-11e3-9e25-188ebe1fa93b_story.html

No love, someone who nearly died due to gestational complications.

Now, GFY.

secularprolife.org said...

I don't think she just *sounds* like a halfwit ...

secularprolife.org said...

I did acknowledge but YOU chose to act like a bitch about it and tried to turn that acknowledgement into an attack. Now you want to play victim? Sweetie, the three of you are better than this. Women are better than this.

secularprolife.org said...

Wrong. You didn't acknowledge anything. What you did was refuse to answer my question and instead throw in some blather about the Twilight Zone and 'fear of vaginas'. All of which had nothing to do with my post.

secularprolife.org said...

Actually what I disagree with is teaching women to fear their bodies. I disagree with using abortions as a societal Band-Aid instead of addressing issues like domestic violence, educational and employment opportunities and the advertisement of abortion as a fucking cure all for women's issues with primarily male owned clinics that make mad profits off of the bodies of women and their unborn children. I'm disagree with women being so ashamed of their bodies and themselves that they falsely believe that adopting male behavioral traits promotes equality for women. It's time to stand up against the bullshit. It's time to stand against assholes making mad money off of our bodies like some kind of medical form of prostitution. It's time for women to have REAL CHOICES instead of option one -carry the baby and risk baby taken away by violent spouse, or lose educational opportunities, or lose employment, or be slut shamed to option two- just kill the baby and be slut shamed anyway and fool ourselves into thinking that we shafted male domination by having an abortion.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, here you are yet again bringing up forced childbirth but still hold onto claims that I brought it up. Gotcha.

secularprolife.org said...

Abortion is a real choice. Just like the choice to have a child and either raise that child or give them up for adoption. Nothing to do with 'adopting male behavioral traits' or 'shafting male domination'. If a woman is pregnant and she doesn't want to be, she should have the choice to end that pregnancy.

secularprolife.org said...

It's time to stand against assholes making mad money off of our bodies like some kind of medical form of prostitution.

Irrelevant. The vast majority of doctors charge for their services.

secularprolife.org said...

Right. Let's just cling to that and ignore all the women out there that have been through this and are going through this. Well, you can. I choose to fight for women because women do deserve better than this nonsense.

secularprolife.org said...

Answer the question.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, look who is butt hurt because I called her bullshit out.

secularprolife.org said...

Let's just cling to that and ignore all the women out there that have been through this and are going through this.


I'm completely in support of making it easier for women to have and raise their children, both economically and socially. Countries that have a strong social safety net and a good healthcare system tend to have lower abortion rates. But the fact remains that some women are still going to want or need to end their pregnancies.

secularprolife.org said...

No one is teaching women to fear their bodies you dishonest twit.


As has been repeatedly explained to you, pro-lifers like to pretend that abortion is the greatest of all evils, and that pregnancy is the best thing that can happen to a woman - that a woman isn't a 'real woman' until she's given birth, and that pregnancy cures cancer, diabetes and auto-immune diseases. All bullshit. What we are doing is countering that, and simply saying that pregnancy is a medical condition, and that ONLY the person facing the risk should decide whether or not to carry the pregnancy to term. No one else can make that decision for them.

secularprolife.org said...

Keep on dreaming, honey.

secularprolife.org said...

There's only one person here who has been tossing bullshit out, and it isn't me or night porter.

secularprolife.org said...

Right. Because even though the earth has enough for everyone's need but not greed, the solution is not to fight greed and corruption but prevent life.

secularprolife.org said...

Basically it's a combination of Muriel, Anglel and that other girl who said that she had 'refruited' us. .

secularprolife.org said...

Man, I love it when my arguments are successfully refruited.

secularprolife.org said...

Human greed includes the utterly selfish desire to reproduce. And the total biomass on the planet is finite. That means the more biomass that gets tied up in the form of human bodies and human food sources, the less biomass is available for everything else, trees, flowers, birds, whales, etc. THAT is why 3 species are going extinct every hour, a direct consequence of human greed/selfishness/overpopulation. What right do humans have to do that? "Might makes right?" Ego? Stupid Prejudice? I greatly doubt you can present ANY valid reason for forcing more human mouths-to-feed to get born!

secularprolife.org said...

"The utterly selfish desire to reproduce". So every life form that reproduces is selfish? Are you kidding me?

secularprolife.org said...

Again, you came out with the butt hurt bullshit. Don't dish it if you can't take it.

secularprolife.org said...

I haven't dished any. You, on the other hand, have been shoveling it.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, Christine! Yes, she "refruited" us all right. BWAHAHAHAHA!

secularprolife.org said...

I don't have to. You're the one screaming about 800 maternal deaths and using their blood to validate your opinion that the number one cause of death for women is pregnancy and child birth.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/05/06/3434509/us-maternal-mortality/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/11/AR2008101102165.html

Even with maternal deaths at an all time high in the US alone, it is still a little over 18 deaths per 100.000 births. According to the CDC, maternal related deaths are not even in the top ten causes of death for women. A woman is more likely to die of an accident, murder, HIV, PIV, and cancer than she is from maternal death.

http://www.cdc.gov/Women/lcod/2010/index.htm

And in both the US and globally, the primary reason women die in childbirth or pregnancy complications IS BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO ADEQUATE HEALTHCARE and NOT because she had the audacity not to abort a pregnancy and give birth. Your argument is ridiculous, despite your insistence on manipulating facts.

secularprolife.org said...

What complete and utter bullshit. You do not get to decide how much medical risk anyone other than yourself is going to take. Please feel free to gestate any pregnancies you so desire, regardless of their risk. That's your choice. Another woman need not do the same.

secularprolife.org said...

Seeing as how Night Porter did none of those things, I think YOU need to wake the fuck up.

secularprolife.org said...

No, dummy. No one did any such thing. Everyone has pointed out ACCURATELY that every pregnancy is risky, and that those risks cannot be predicted until the woman is actually pregnant.

Jesus wept. Were you homeschooled by imbeciles?

secularprolife.org said...

Wrong. You just mistook kindness for weakness and are still trying to validate your support for one of the weakest and dumbest pro-abortion arguments I have ever seen.

secularprolife.org said...

You took the time to write that, but couldn't take the time to answer the question?

secularprolife.org said...

Twist it all you want but childbirth and pregnancy ARE NOT THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR WOMEN. I have never seen so many people fight for the most retarded argument I have ever seen.

secularprolife.org said...

Denial. Wow. How about earning the vagina you were born with and actually step up to tactics that you supported.

secularprolife.org said...

primarily male owned clinics that make mad profits off of the bodies of women and their unborn children.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The typical fee for an abortion is around $500. The typical fee for L&D is around $42K (source: http://aattp.org/hospital-bill-horror-story-shows-deficiency-of-us-healthcare-system/). The same OB/GYN presides over either procedure. On which one do you think that MD is making the most profit?

You are really not very well-informed.

secularprolife.org said...

Kindness? Please. Dishonest and disingenuous, yes, but trust me, I never thought of you as 'kind'. And no one here is 'pro-abortion'. We are pro-choice and you are anti-choice.

secularprolife.org said...

Bullshit. If you want to falsely believe that pregnancy and childbirth is the leading cause of maternal death, then go ahead. There really is no fighting with stupid.

secularprolife.org said...

You seem to be really obsessed with other women's vaginas. Why is that?

secularprolife.org said...

You've been doing nothing but lying.

secularprolife.org said...

Are you trying to position yourself as kind?

What a frigging laugh.

secularprolife.org said...

What does my vagina have to do with this?

secularprolife.org said...

No. What you did is ignore the fact that not only inadequate healthcare is the primary reason why we have maternal deaths but also refused to acknowledge other very serious conditions cause the deaths of more women than pregnancy and childbirth. And your solution for maternal deaths that do happen? Abortion instead of access to healthcare for these women. Yet another way of using abortion as a Band-Aid instead of actually finding real solutions for women.

secularprolife.org said...

You really are this stupid, aren't you?

Gestational complications ARE the leading cause of death for women world-wide. Those complications include diabetes, hypertension, etc., that were NOT present before the woman got pregnant.

Stop doubling down on the stupid.

Or, you know what? Don't. Keep right on keepin' on. It just goes to show that the basis of the anti-choice movement is nothing but pure ignorance.

secularprolife.org said...

Not in cases when it could have been easily prevented.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh. So force women to give birth instead of letting them decide for themselves whether or not to carry to term?

How magnanimous of you.

secularprolife.org said...

Such as?

secularprolife.org said...

No screaming. Trust women.

secularprolife.org said...

Jenn, this is ALL about your vagina. Don't be shy.

secularprolife.org said...

NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST. Just feeding your own face qualifies you as "selfish" --why shouldn't some other organism have that food, eh?

It is to be noted that the preceding means every life-form is equal with respect to being selfish --neither you nor any other living thing (me, too!) is superior even to a virus, in that respect. However, that just means that, Logically, selfishness per seis not an inherently bad thing. It is "too much" selfishness that always qualifies as a bad thing.

The fact that biomass is finite leads, basically, to War between life-forms. Each one "wants" the biomass that others are using, in order to reproduce. That's the environment in which humans evolved. It is possible that's the only excuse we need, to justify breeding. On the other hand, it still remains a Truth that Too Much Selfishness Is A Bad Thing.

Naturally, different folks have different perceptions of what qualifies as "too much". Nevertheless, it should be obvious that the more total humans there are in the world, the more total human selfishness exists. Current consequences of human overpopulation include Global Warming, overfishing, deforestation, aquifer depletion, mass production of pollutants, farmland encroachment by cities (go ahead; I dare you to tell me that that trend is indefinitely sustainable!), and hourly species-extinctions.


At what point can it be Objectively stated that humanity has reached or passed the "too much" mark? And how many other species must DIE before we recognize it?

secularprolife.org said...

And I'm supposed to 'earn it', apparently. Stranger and stranger.

secularprolife.org said...

Works for me.

secularprolife.org said...

What if Jennifer can't earn it? Should she give it up? Hand it over to someone who can handle the awesome responsibility of owning a vagina?

Perhaps Jennifer should start out with a training vagina:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqAjWoToDPo


Do you think she can handle the responsibility?

secularprolife.org said...

Oh my gosh--I think I just squirted water out of my nose:)

secularprolife.org said...

Reading her replies reminds me of why I no longer call myself 'pro-life'.

secularprolife.org said...

It's not selfish in itself to have a child and nor does it contribute to greed. Do you consider infants and children to be vile? Do you believe that only the rich are those that have money are the only ones that should be allowed to procreate? Now poor people are greedy for having the nerve to give birth to a child? Especially when it's the poor that are enslaved by the rich and powerful. How about fighting for humane causes and against greedy corporations and those in power that feed off the poor? They are the ones that are the parasites. Not the poor.

secularprolife.org said...

No. Childbirth and pregnancy is not the leading cause of death for women. I know it's hard for you to accept and would rather call me a liar than accept that but it does not make it any less true.

secularprolife.org said...

Do you have issues with women promoting vaginas? Do you have issues with being proud of vaginas? Everyone woman should be proud of their vagina. Alas, not everyone woman deserves to have one.

secularprolife.org said...

Why don't they deserve to have one?

secularprolife.org said...

Yeah. You sure showed me! A video of a training vagina is "proof" that you are right about childbirth and pregnancy kills more women than anything else and in no way do you look like a retard.

secularprolife.org said...

I'm sorry you don't have a sense of humor.

secularprolife.org said...

Do you think that the training vagina will help Jennifer to develop the skills so that she can earn hers?

secularprolife.org said...

You do realize that I was using it as a metaphor representing feminine courage, right?

secularprolife.org said...

Yeah, but as a metaphor, it's kind of crap.

secularprolife.org said...

I do kegel exercises--wonder if that counts.

secularprolife.org said...

Ask her!

secularprolife.org said...

Does it count if i do kegel exercises?

secularprolife.org said...

Kegel can't hurt can it? Go ahead and pump some iron, lol.

secularprolife.org said...

And as long as we're going to be talking about who's courageous here, might I point out that you've already said that if you got pregnant again that you would abort to preserve your health. Or would your abortion be more 'moral' than others?

secularprolife.org said...

So, you can't answer the question then?

What a bizarre individual you are. I really don't get too concerned with what other people do with their genitalia, so I cannot comprehend your obsession.

secularprolife.org said...

Probably, but I still think vaginas are awesome and tired of the way people treat vaginas like it's something to be ashamed of - in fact there is no reason for any woman to be ashamed or fearful of any part of her body. There is no reason for women to resent their bodies. There are different reasons why people support or do not support abortions, some valid. Some not. And most people on either side of the coin even share similar views if the could just sit down and talk without allowing irrelevant and divisive rhetoric to stand in their way. Fact is that abortion is legal and a constitutionally protected right within the United States. Fact is other countries that have practiced zero tolerance for abortion and banned it have contributed to easily preventable deaths. Fact is that extremists on the pro-life side have gone as far as to try to make miscarriage itself as validation to hold women as murder suspects. However, many pro-lifers do not endorse that kind of extremism. I may personally despise abortion and because I despise it I will advocate for alternate solutions to abortions, which many pro-choicers also do but I would never vote to make abortion illegal, judge a woman for having an abortion, slut-shame a woman for having an abortion, rally outside an abortion clinic or stand by or agree to a woman's medical records (or anyone else's) and/or treatment plan to be violated . I consider an unborn child to be a life but mom's emotional, mental and physical health come first. Still, it doesn't change the fact that abortions aren't always the best solutions for women and in some cases have harmed women more than it has helped them. If women are to make a true choice, whether it's to keep her unborn child or abort, then women deserve all the facts, without fallacies, without bad science, without emotional and mental manipulation from either side. She can not undo either decision once she is pregnant. Society owes it to women to help her make the best choice for herself and her child and not force political agendas on her.

secularprolife.org said...

Don't you think you should ask Jennifer that?

secularprolife.org said...

It was funny. Doesn't mean that I had to admit it.

secularprolife.org said...

This is not about not trusting women or negating their deaths. This is about not promoting fear. The primary reason that women die in childbirth or pregnancy related deaths is due lack of access to decent medical care.

secularprolife.org said...

Choosing to engage in sexual activity without using protection. At sixteen, though I was staunchly pro-choice, I bought my own birth control because I knew that at sixteen I did not want to get pregnant (my guardian refused to take me to Planned Parenthood or a doctor to obtain birth control) and abortion was not an option for me (my guardian would never have consented to an abortion either). When birth control fails and sometimes it does, okay, got it. But there is no excuse not to be responsible (unless of course a woman or young lady was not educated in the birds and bees).

secularprolife.org said...

The fact that pregnancy is not risk free is not 'fearmongering' sweetie. It's called 'reality'.


And no, the reason that women, at least in the developed world, still die from pregnancy is because it is utterly impossible, even with the BEST medical care, to either predict or prevent every death. It's just not possible. Even Joan Rivers, with the BEST medical care that money could buy, died because her doctor messed up.

secularprolife.org said...

You should, you're the one who is obsessed with her vajayjay.

secularprolife.org said...

How is supporting health care for women denying them a choice? How is refusing to bow down to data manipulation forcing women to give birth? How is refusing to remain silent while someone writes a post that basically advocates fear of childbirth and pregnancy?

secularprolife.org said...

Do you seek to criminalize abortion?

secularprolife.org said...

Do you seek to criminalize abortion? You still haven't answered.

secularprolife.org said...

I kind of wonder if you're talking about the uterus now, seeing as how that's where a fetus would be carried.

secularprolife.org said...

With abstinence-only education being promoted in schools for the past decade or so over comprehensive sex-ed, that might very well be true.

secularprolife.org said...

First there is denial of endorsing women to fear their bodies and now you go back to it? Which is it? Can you make up your mind? You think calling me stupid and your refusal to stop manipulating facts is going to make you right? Yes women develop such conditions while pregnant but guess what? Women also develop these conditions without being pregnant! And the data is separate from women that have these conditions without being pregnant from those that developed these conditions while being pregnant, did not have access to medical care to treat these conditions and in this country it's more likely to happen to a woman of color than a white mom; and lack of medical care for treatable conditions is causing the deaths of these women and NOT BECAUSE SHE "FOOLISHLY" HAD A BABY. In fact, a friend of mine was rejected by North Carolina Medicaid though she was pregnant, a very much wanted pregnancy because she was planning on allowing her gay sister and her partner to adopt the baby. The state kept "losing" her paper work. She had no access to medical care and unknowingly developed gestational diabetes. She gave vaginal birth to a 19lb stillborn because the doctors wouldn't listen to her in the emergency room to go ahead and deliver the baby before the baby died. Then she was denied pain medication after losing the baby because they mistakenly believed her to be an addict - just because she is black. And guess what? Cape Fear Hospital is so well connected that no lawyer would touch the case and ironically, the state came through after the baby died. There are many women like her and promoting fear with glorifying abortion as an answer to maternal deaths is not a solution. Making sure that women have healthcare is the solution. And please leave the slut-shaming out of any response you may have. I really don't want to read how she asked for it by deciding to have a baby while being poor because she didn't.

secularprolife.org said...

Yeah, that's funny but your ignorance isn't funny.

secularprolife.org said...

Lying about what, Jennifer? Pregnancy and childbirth is not the leading cause of death for women. Saying that it is the leading cause of death promotes fear.

secularprolife.org said...

Did you forget about the bodies of aborted fetuses being sold to medical schools? Or even how some artists have made gory works of "art" out of aborted fetuses?

secularprolife.org said...

You will be carrying one in your fleshlight, because you haven't yet earned the right to carry a fetus in your http://win.allbestsoft.com/scr/391/free-pussy-cat-screensaver-big-2.jpg

secularprolife.org said...

Speaking personally, if I was going to carry a pregnancy I would want to hear actual facts, not candy-coated drivel because some 'pro-lifer' is worried that I might get an abortion. .

secularprolife.org said...

"Gestational complications ARE the leading cause of death for women world-wide". No it is not. And your words, not mine.

secularprolife.org said...

You're right. It wasn't shame. It was fear. My bad.

secularprolife.org said...

You need help.

secularprolife.org said...

This isn't a matter over medical risk. Hell, take a pill and you could risk an allergic reaction, death, vomiting, dizziness and other side effects and complications but it doesn't mean that one should be afraid of taking the fucking pill. Pregnancy and childbirth can be frightening as is, why add to the fucking fear?

secularprolife.org said...

Or even how some artists have made gory works of "art" out of aborted fetuses?



Do you mean people responsible for the photos that anti-choicers love to brandish?

secularprolife.org said...

Yes, you beef-witted pox-plow. Gestational complications are the leading cause of death for women world-wide. The information has been provided to you repeatedly.

What is up with your aversion to facts? How are facts 'fear-mongering'?

Do you have some sort of issue for which medication might be helpful? Because I'm beginning to think that's the case.

secularprolife.org said...

Right. I also needed three other people to be at my side to gang up on you. Oh, wait.

secularprolife.org said...

Okay, now I know you're a nutter. You can provide an unbiased source for that assertion, or admit that you're a liar. There is no middle ground.

secularprolife.org said...

You should look into a career writing fiction; you have a very vivid imagination.

secularprolife.org said...

Now this is playing the victim card. I didn't call anyone to be at my side--in fact they were here before me.

secularprolife.org said...

I'll concede your point. It does seem that way but on the other hand, not a single one of you offered an original point except the person that seems to have ancient middle eastern beliefs that giving birth is selfish.

secularprolife.org said...

Pregnancy and childbirth can be frightening as is, why add to the fucking fear?

Oh, I get it. You're one of those people who thinks that pregnancy should only be spoken of as all fairy farts and chocolate ice cream.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but fuck that noise.

When the complication happens to *you,* the odds have just become 100 percent. Do you understand that?

And yes, it is a matter of medical risk. Telling the truth is NOT fear-mongering. Every pregnancy is risky, and whether or not the risks will or will not manifest cannot be determined until AFTER the woman is pregnant. Every pregnancy causes permanent physiological changes to a woman's body, such that a forensic anthropologist (which just happens to be my background) can tell from skeletal remains how many times a woman has been pregnant.

You may choose to gestate as many risky pregnancies as you wish. I will not do so again (do you see that word, again? That means my experience with this is PRIMARY. Should my tubal ligation fail, there will be an abortion scheduled immediately. And guess what? There's not a goddamned thing you can do about it.

I now understand that you don't like truth to be spoken, just like so many of your fellow anti-choicers.

Suck it up, Buttercup.

secularprolife.org said...

"Gestational complications ARE the leading cause of death for women world-wide". Your words. False information. Promotes fear.

secularprolife.org said...

You calling anyone ignorant is risible ...

secularprolife.org said...

It is NOT false information, you clot-brained laggard. It is accurate.

You are too stupid for color TV.

secularprolife.org said...

IIC is correct. Having chlidren CAN be selfish. Abortion is green.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkgDhDa4HHo


Planetary resources are not finite, sweety, and one reason that people are killing each other over in Africa and the Middle East is that too many people are fighting over too few resources. Drought leads to famine leads to war.

secularprolife.org said...

You and me both, sister. I'm embarrassed to have ever been part of that idiotic movement. Perhaps she will grow up some day.

secularprolife.org said...

Because even though the earth has enough for everyone's need

You really do need to get out into RealityLand ... resources are NOT infinite.

secularprolife.org said...

Wow. So many straw men in so little space.

secularprolife.org said...

Only an imbecile would think that factual information constitutes fear-mongering ...

secularprolife.org said...

Your "metaphor" is absurd.

secularprolife.org said...

Of course it would; hers would be a "case of need" (just like it is every time an anti-choicer has an abortion). Everyone else is just Slutty McSlutterpants, partying down and wanting to "avoid the consequences."

secularprolife.org said...

Should Jennifer be proud of her Fleshlight? Does she even deserve one?

secularprolife.org said...

It's not selfish in itself to have a child
-----
FALSE. It absolutely is selfish, passing your genes on to the next generation, consuming resources that others might use, instead. The only Question is, is doing so excessively selfish or not? Note that in Nature, generally speaking, if the parents can't properly support their offspring, the offspring usually die. Humans, being among the most social of animals, have created ways to involve a group to make it easier for offspring to be supported. However, that doesn't change the basic fact that breeding is an inherently selfish act, nor does it change the public perception that if your breeding requires others to pay for it (see "welfare mom", or, better, "the octomom"), then you are being excessively selfish, even if it the result is the only child you ever have.
=====

and nor does it contribute to greed.
-----
IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES. Every extra human mouth-to-feed represents an increase in the total greed of humanity, with respect to the limited biomass of the world.
=====

Do you consider infants and children to be vile?
-----
IRRELEVANT. Greed may be vile, but sources of greed are not necessarily vile. Like I previously wrote, selfishness itself is not an inherently bad thing; it is excess selfishness that is the bad thing. In this case, overpopulation very-simply equals excess selfishness.
=====

Do you believe that only the rich are those that have money are the only ones that should be allowed to procreate?
-----
LOGIC HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BELIEF. Nor is it necessary to be rich to be able to afford offspring. (However, the rich can of course afford more offspring than those who are merely "comfortable" financially speaking.)
=====

Now poor people are greedy for having the nerve to give birth to a child?
-----
EVERYONE IS GREEDY who selfishly passes their genes on. Period. By definition, even! You are making the mistake of thinking that all greed/selfishness is inherently bad, when it isn't. Only in excess is it bad. And "excess" in this case can be defined in terms of expecting others to pay for your selfish desire to breed.
=====

Especially when it's the poor that are enslaved by the rich and powerful.
-----
IRRELEVANT, except in the long term. Think about it! If the poor stop breeding, who can the rich enslave?
=====

How about fighting for humane causes and against greedy corporations and those in power that feed off the poor?
-----
ALL SORTS OF EXCESS SELFISHNESS DESERVE ATTACK. But don't let your focus on certain types blind you to the existence of other types!
=====

They are the ones that are the parasites. Not the poor.
-----
The biggest cause of poverty is overpopulation, and there is a simple proof of it --just divide your income by an increasing number X of your children, and see how much each of you ends up with. Why should your boss give you a pay raise just because you selfishly had another child? What did you do to earn that child? As mentioned in different words above, generally in Nature, if the parents can't earn their offspring, the offspring typically die.

secularprolife.org said...

The other girl who claimed to be black or something, and told us that she believed in the intrinsic worth of fetuses, however, fetuses could be killed provided the woman used birth control - but if the slut had unprotected sex, the fetus suddenly had a right to life.


She impressed us with her superior knowledge by throwing around the word 'eroteme' a lot.

secularprolife.org said...

http://www.investigatemagazine.co.nz/Investigate/2451/fetal-body-parts-used-for-reseach/

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/24/nyregion/abortion-mills-thriving-behind-secrecy-and-fear.html?src=pm&pagewanted=2

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3031800.stm

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fetal-tissue-used-generate-electricity-oregon-n88716

Here's a little extra article on forced pregnancies: http://www.bioedge.org/index.php/bioethics/bioethics_article/11148

Not sure about this site but it is an interesting article: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/the-population-control-holocaust

secularprolife.org said...

Next you will be praising Nazis.

secularprolife.org said...

What part of responsibility do you not understand?

secularprolife.org said...

Yes, the World Health Organization consists of nothing but liars.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, the CDC are nothing but a bunch of liars, too? Any other organization that is a threat to your beliefs are liars too? Lady you are just as crazy as far righters.

secularprolife.org said...

Actually, the WHO goes on at great length about how dangerous pregnancy is.

secularprolife.org said...

Why don't you tell me about it.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, look how clever and cool you are! I'm sure you will win some popularity points.

secularprolife.org said...

Right. Just like telling men to earn the balls they were born with is unheard of and not a cliché.

secularprolife.org said...

Well, should she? Stop evading, it's a serious question.

secularprolife.org said...

Actually, I cited the CDC first thing when you said that pregnancy was all fairy farts and rainbows.

secularprolife.org said...

"Only an imbecile" blah, blah, blah. Because when logic hurts, then throw out constant name calling.

secularprolife.org said...

Yes! You are quite adept in that!

secularprolife.org said...

Only the ones you refer to, right?

secularprolife.org said...

Never seen so many child haters gathered in one place. Do you kidnap and sacrifice little children too?

secularprolife.org said...

Actually, Hitler was anti-choice - he banned contraception and abortion and strongly encouraged aryan women to breed like rabbits.

secularprolife.org said...

And you are an ignorant, cowardly, pretentious little cunt that can't debate her way out of a paper bag.

secularprolife.org said...

Yes. Of course we do. I mean, fiona almost died to give birth to her much loved child, clearly she hates children. In fact, the majority of pro-choice women that I know chose to have kids, often multiples, I guess they hate children too eh?

secularprolife.org said...

http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2011/03/irony3.jpeg

secularprolife.org said...

Oh no. She claims I'm laughable. How will I ever survive?

secularprolife.org said...

Fairy farts? Chocolate ice cream? That's your comeback? That's all you have?

secularprolife.org said...

Or you would like for people to believe as such?

secularprolife.org said...

Yes, I do. I'm surrounded by idiots like you.

secularprolife.org said...

Who the fuck endorsed a "candy coated drivel"? PMSing much?

secularprolife.org said...

You, cupcake.

secularprolife.org said...

You are right. Women should fear their bodies. Fear pregnancy. Fear birth. Fear chicken little falling out of the sky. Fear the bogey man under the bed. Be good humans and not procreate so that big industry and corporations can rake in profits and the rich can inherit the earth.

secularprolife.org said...

I don't have to get people to believe anything when the people who took the photos admit it. Though they generally misrepresent stillbirths as late-term abortions, but that shouldn't surprise anyone.

secularprolife.org said...

Straw man.

secularprolife.org said...

Not a fan of abstinence only education. It's ridiculous and unrealistic.

secularprolife.org said...

You'd make an unwilling teen gestate as punishment? How do you think she'll feel about the baby when it's born?

secularprolife.org said...

Hey, if you want to hate your vagina, that's fine. Who am I to judge? My bad.

secularprolife.org said...

I have answered. You just haven't read.

secularprolife.org said...

I've heard of people telling to grow some. I've yet to hear of anyone telling them to 'earn them'.

secularprolife.org said...

Bullshit.

secularprolife.org said...

Well that's taking ego to whole another level. How ironic that people that are supposed to be pro-choice and normally align themselves with GLBTs are engaging in homosexual shaming. Tsk. Tsk.

secularprolife.org said...

And that's homosexual shaming how?

secularprolife.org said...

Who said it wasn't risk free? Being alive itself is a risk for dying. Once your dead there is no longer a risk to die. Wow. You ladies are really pissed, lmao.

secularprolife.org said...

Oh, I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with rejecting societal degradation of women and their body parts. But if you are okay with that......

secularprolife.org said...

Is that so?

secularprolife.org said...

Citation needed.

secularprolife.org said...

Do you pick and choose what I write according to your convenience?

secularprolife.org said...

No one else is saying that. Except for you.

secularprolife.org said...

Yep. Maybe you should move up to weight training after awhile.

secularprolife.org said...

You're the one who gets her panties in a knot over talking about the realities of pregnancy.

secularprolife.org said...

Yeah, your tinfoil hat is on a litlte too tight, as well.

secularprolife.org said...

My pro-choice grandparents chose to have seven.

secularprolife.org said...

Coming from you that's hilarious.

secularprolife.org said...

Yes, clearly they are heartless babykillers.

secularprolife.org said...

And she naively thinks that 'cunt' is an insult. tsk tsk

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